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 11.3x36R? 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:40 pm
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Post 11.3x36R?
OK, I got 6 new rounds today that are all approximately 11.3x36R, however they are marked as; 11.3mm Gasser, 11.3mm Montenegrin Extra, 11.3mm Montenegrin, 11.5mm Montenegrin, and 11.1x36R. They have a mix of flat bases, beveled rims, and a Mauser "A" base, which I gather signifies a carbine load. Are these all essentially the same round, and if so, is there an accepted single name for all of them? In addition, can anyone provide a check-list of headstamps in this caliber?
Thanks.

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:09 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Jon, these are difficult to identify without any pictures. However, a raised base with these measurements is not a Mauser or Mauser "A" base and does not necessarily indicates a carbine load.


Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:55 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
I think, however, that they are all essentially for the same type of Austrian/Montenegrin revolver and/or carbine. I think that weapons chambered for this multi-named cartridge were in use in the extended Balkans region from the 1870s through to the 1930s. I haven't been finding much lately in my favorite calibers, so I have developed an interest in what I'll call the "11.3x36R Gasser-Montenegrin" cartridge. I have 7 nice examples so far, but I would like to know what loadings and headstamps might be available. Here are the ones I have so far:

Image
Image
Image

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Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:18 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Round headstamped SB / * / 1902 / * / is not for a revolver but for Kropatschek M. 1881 Carbine (11 mm für Gendarmerie-Repetiergewehr scharfe Patrone). It is loaded with a 19.2 g FMJ nickeled steel bullet (designed for tubular magazine) and 31.5 g of black powder.

Boxes for these may cause some confusion because were labeled "“25 MONTENEGRO REVOLVER SELLIER & BELLOT” with an extra label saying "“BALLES BLINDÉES”.

By the way, which is the exact case length of round made by Vojna radionica Cetinje?


Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:05 am
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
The exact case length of the round made by Vojna Radionica, Cetinje is 35.87mm.

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Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:31 am
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
This is the list of names I've found so far. I would love a headstamp checklist to go along with it.

VARIOUS 11X36R GASSER-MONTENEGRIN NAMES
11 mm Austrian Gasser
11 mm Gasser Mod. 70
11mm Gasser-Montenegrin
11mm Mod. 1870 ScharfeRevolverpatrone
11.2 Gasser 1870
11.2x36 R Gasser
11.25x36 Montenegrin
11.3 Gasser
11.4 Gasser Montenegrin
11.5 Serbian Gasser
DWM 315 / DWM 315A / DWM 152
GR 10 / GR 287
11.3 Gasser 1870-74 Montenegrin, base Mauser-A
11.5 Montenegrin Gasser
11.5 Serbischer Montenegriner
11.75 Montenegrin
11.3 Gasser 1870-74 Montenegrin, base ligera-light base
.44 Montenegrin Revolver
11 mm Gasser Mod. 1870-74
11.2 Montenegrin Revolver
11.2 Osterreicher Gasser Revolver 1870-74
11.2x36R Österreich Ungarn Gaser Kavallerie Revolver 1870
11.25x36 Montenegrin No.3 Revolver
11.3 Österreichse Armee Revolver
11.3x35.8R Montenegrin No. 1 Revolver
11.4x36R Montenegrin No.3 Revolver

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Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:37 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Hello Jon, here is my headstamp checklist (revolver only):

18 / H / 91 / U /
18 / Image / 91 / U / (Turkish contract)
18 / III / 91 / III /
18 / III / 91 / III / (primer headstamped with cyrilic π)
18 / R / 91 / B /
ELEY . .44 M .
E . .44 M . (may not exist; illustrated in White & Munhall)
W.R.A.Co. MONTENEGRIN EXTRA. (Primer No. 1 Win or No. 12 NF)
Montenegrin extra
MONTENEGRIN   EXTRA  
MONTENEGRO * EXTRA *
V.F.M. & CA LIEGE 12
MONTENEGRIN * H *
H.UTENDOERFFER + NUERNBERG +
GG * MONTENEGRIN *
FOMU / * / * / * /
GR / . / . / . /

SB * 1902 * (also loaded for Kropatschek carbines)
В. Р. ЦЕТИњE 1910
H * * *
BRAUN & BLOEM . 480 .

G. EGESTORFF 480
G.F.L. 44 MONTENEGRIN
A / (cornucopia) / A / W /
HR (incomplete, not sure about the rest of this headstamp)
/ / / / (Roth primer)
No headstamp (flat base, Léon Beaux)
No headstamp (raised base, Hirtenberger)

There a many more unheadstamped variations.

18 / GR / 70 / XII /
18 / GR / 71 / VII /
18 / GR / 71 / VIII /
18 / GR / 72 / VIII /
18 / GR / 72 / IV /
18 / GR / 73 / III /
18 / C / II / 74 /
(C = Cornides)
18 / GR / 75 / VII /
18 / GR / 75 / VIII /

18 / R / 76 / III / (R = Rosman)
18 / R / 76 / IIII / (not IV)
18 / Z / 76 / VI / (Z = Zboril)
18 / GR / 76 / VII /
18 / Z / 77 / VII /
18 / C / 78 / VIII /
18 / SK / 80 / III /
(SK = Seraphin Keller)
18 / SB / 80 / V /
18 / SK / 81 / III /
18 / GR / 82 / III /
18 / R / 82 / VII /
18 / SK / 84 / III /
18 / K&C / 88 / III
18 / SB / 88 / IV /
(Sellier & Bellot)
18 / K&C / 89 / III /
18 / K&C / 92 / VII /
18 / K&C / 93 / III /

19 / III / 09 / GR / (these were loaded for Gasser M. 70 revolvers but if case is slightly necked case should be a Werndl M. 82 carbine load; check your specimen)
19 / GR / 15 / XI / (thick rim, 14,5/12,5 mm Mannlicher type case)
19 / GR / 15 / XII / (thick rim, 14,5/12,5 mm Mannlicher type case)

Many months are probably missing.

I'm have never seen any confirmed Lorenz, DM-K or DWM examples.


Last edited by Fede on Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:12 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:59 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Thank you, that's excellent.

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:03 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Headstamp 18 / III / 91 / III / was made by Sellier & Bellot.

I also edited my previous post because the one headstamped 18 / JN (monogram) / 73 / III / is not revolver but Werndl M. 67 carbine load.

A few more:

ELEY . LONDON .
18 / SB / 79 / VI /
* MONTENEGRIN * GG ("Montenegrin" centered at 12)


Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:47 am
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Sorry to be so late. It took a while to assemble this list.

Four entry headstamp reads 12:00 / 9 :00 / 3 :00 / 6:00 /
If no bullet is described, it is RN lead
Sometimes hard to tell if a star is solid or hollow, and I couldn't figure out how to insert a star, so if it just says star, it's solid. If it's hollow it says h star.

Some duplication of Fede list.

͡ over star / A / F / T / flat nose lead, large copper primer

XII 18 9? B or R? h/s is partially off the base. large flat copper primer

B&B / (h star) / (h star) / D / large brass primer
BRAUN & BLOEM •480• small copper primer

В. Р. ЦЕТИњE 1906 raised base, lg. flat brass primer
В. Р. ЦЕТИњE 1909 same
В. Р. ЦЕТИњE 1911 same

C R B LIEGE flat nose lead, large brass primer
C R B LIEGE plated RN CN, small copper primer
h star C. R. B h star MONTENEGRIN flat nose lead, small brass primer
star C R B star MONTENEGRIN flat nose lead, large brass primer

(asterisk) / 19 / 10 / D / Flat nose lead, large copper primer

Do 11mm Made by Dorfner, a gunsmith in Vienna, 1993.

E 44M polished dummy, no primer, FN lead
ELEY - - ・44M FN lead, dummy, pierced cu. primer, neck choke
ELEY - - ・44M FN lead, dummy, pierced cu. primer, neck choke.
One small hole in case
ELEY • • LONDON flat nose lead, large brass primer, board dummy, two mounting holes on one side of case

FOMU / star / star / star / flat nose lead, large brass primer

GAUPILLAT PARIS raised base, brass battery cup, copper primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN Flat nose lead, large brass primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN Flat nose lead, large copper primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN Flat nose lead, small brass primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN Flat nose lead, small copper primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN Flat nose GM FP, large copper primer
star GG star MONTENEGRIN small brass primer
MONTENEGRIN star GG star small brass primer
MONTENEGRIN h star GG h star Flat nose lead, small copper primer

GR / • / • / • / Flat nose lead, large brass primer,
Raised base, headstamp is on bevel
GR star star star large flat copper primer
GR / star / star / star / Flat nose lead, large copper primer
III / 18 / 82 / GR / Flat nose lead, large flat copper primer
GR / 18 / 92 / star / Flat nose lead, large brass primer
GR / star / star / 1898 / flat nose lead, large flat copper primer
IX / 19 / 14 / GR / small brass primer, primed case

H.UTENDOERFER • NURNBERG • raised base, raised headstamp on bevel,
flat nose lead, large brass primer
H / star / star / star / large copper primer
H / star / star / star / large brass primer
H / 18 / 91 / U / flat nose lead, large copper primer
H / 18 / 91 / U / flat nose lead, large brass primer
H / 18 / 91 / U / flat nose lead, small copper primer
H / 18 / 91 / U / nickel-clad steel jacket, large copper primer
H / 18 / 91 / U / large brass primer, blank, roll crimp mouth, tan wad

H / star / star / K&C. / large copper primer
III / 18 / 81 / K&C. /
III / 18 / 88 / K&C / large copper primer, no dot after K&C
III / 18 / 88 / K&C. / dot after K&C
III / 18 / 89 / K&C. / large copper primer
III / 18 / 91 / K&C. / flat nose lead, large brass primer
III / 18 / 91 / K&C. / flat nose lead, large copper primer
III / 18 / 92 / K&C / large brass primer, no dot after K&C, beveled rim
III / 18 / 93 / K&C. / large copper primer
96 / star / star / K&C. / large copper primer
96 / star / star) / K&C. / large copper primer, blank, roll crimp mouth

KL / x / x / B / Kynoch. The x is actually five armed.


KYNOCH 44M reported, not confirmed.

M / 18 / 87 / star star / large copper primer

MONTENEGRIN star star Serif letters, small brass primer
Montenegrin Extra paper patched lead trunc. cone, large brass primer
Montenegrin Extra RN lead, large brass primer
Montenegrin Extra RN nickel-clad steel jacket, large brass primer
MONTENEGRIN EXTRA small copper primer
MONTENEGRIN / • / • / EXTRA / EXTRA inverted, small brass primer
MONTENEGRIN / • / • / EXTRA / EXTRA inverted, small copper primer
MONTENEGRIN / star / star / EXTRA / EXTRA inverted, small copper primer
MONTENEGRO / star / star / EXTRA / Serif letters, small brass primer
MONTENEGRO / star / star / EXTRA / Serif letters, large brass primer
MONTENEGRIN star H star large copper primer
MONTENEGRIN star H star large copper primer, blank, roll crimp, white wad

OS intertwined / • / • / • / Oberweissbach plant of Hugo Schneider,
flat nose lead, large copper primer

R / 18 / 81 / B / large brass primer
R / 18 / 91 / B / large copper primer
R / 18 / 91 / B / large brass primer
R / 18 / 91 / B / large brass primer, 10 petal rose crimp blank
R&B / h star / h star / D


S.F.M h star h star GG flat nose lead, lg. copper primer
S.F.M h star h star MONTENEGRIN flat nose lead, lg. copper primer
S.F.M star star SERBE flat nose lead, lg. brass primer

III / 18 / 81 / SK / flat nose lead, lg. flat copper primer
III / 18 / 84 / SK / flat nose lead, lg. flat copper primer
III / 18 / 87 / SK / flat nose lead, lg. flat copper primer

V.F.M & C A LIEGE 12 flat nose lead, lg. flat copper primer
V.F.M & C A LIEGE 12 flat nose lead, lg. flat brass primer

W / / / / small corroded primer

W.R.A.Co. MONTENEGRIN EXTRA large brass primer

III / 18 / 91 / III / nickel-clad steel jacket, lg. cu. pri.
III / 18 / 91 / III / nickel-clad steel jacket, lg. cu. pri. w/Л, neck choke
III / 18 / 91 / III / large copper primer with A
III / 18 / 91 / III / large copper primer with A, neck choke
III / 18 / 91 / III / flat nose lead, lg. brass primer
III / 18 / 91 / III / short flat nose lead, lg. copper primer

/ / / / large copper primer

No headstamp, flat nose lead, large copper primer, L. Beaux & Co.
No headstamp, flat nose lead, small brass primer, Fiocchi
No headstamp, raised base, large brass primer, flat nose lead bullet
No headstamp, short RN lead, small copper primer
No headstamp, short FN lead, large flat copper primer

AH logo / asterisk / asterisk / 40 / cut down from 8x56R Hungarian case
REMINGTON 17 small nickel primer, cut down from .303 British case


Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:41 am
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Can someone confirm any other Fiocchi headstamp on this cartridge apart from " GFL 44 Montenegrin"? For example " FGL " ?

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:36 am
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
I take it this is what I have from Montenegro made by Fabryka Oruzja i Municje, Uzice, Serbia. My case length is only 31mm however?

Head 0.491"
Neck 0.470"
Rim 0.567"
Bullet 0.449"
Overall 1.815"

Joe

Image
Image
Image


Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:27 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
jonnyc wrote:
The exact case length of the round made by Vojna Radionica, Cetinje is 35.87mm.


Jon, any info where that factory was located? Or is any other info available?
Haven't seen much from them in the past.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:50 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Sorry, Alex, I have no further information.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:52 pm
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Post Re: 11.3x36R?
Why is mine so short, the brass casing that is.

joe


Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:10 pm
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