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9mm Para Subcalibers-probably
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6647		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  historian [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  9mm Para Subcalibers-probably
The following are a series of subcalibers in my 9x19mm collection. I suspect most are 9mm but of course some could be used on multiple calibers based on the barrel used.


Image

Image

The images are pretty small here. Click on them for a better fiew

1. Adaptor for a post-1945 Swiss Lienhard subcaliber set. I suspect this adaptor cartridge was used with a number of barrels. It has a special primer used to fire a pellet. Before WWII Lienhard use to be a German company. I strongly suspect that #6 and #9 are earlier versions of the Lienhard adaptor made in Germany.
2. 22LR RF adaptor by Lothar Walther of Germany
3 Confirmed Hungarian-Aluminum-4mm adaptor
4. an unknown Aluminum 22RF adaptor-how is it fired? no firing pin offset obvious
5. Unknown 22 RF adaptor
6. Probably pre '45 Lienhard from Germany. I think this is the lower half of a 2 piece adaptor where the Lienhard primer was put in the pocket and then a pellet was put on top and a forepiece screwed on to hold the pellet in place.
7. 4.25mm adaptor. Looks like it was loaded with a ball or pellet and a primer-unknown
8. 22RF adaptor-unknown-how is it fired with no firing pin offset???
9. German or Swiss Lienhard adaptor
10, US Jett & Smith Adaptor
11. US Tri-Jen Manufacturing
12. Lothar Walther adaptor post WWII for 4mm M20 cartirdge
13. Lothar Walther adaptor Post WWII for 4mm M20 cartridge

Does anyone have any information on any of these (other than the the Tri-Jen). On the others, I'm looking for pictures of adaptor sets, labels, etc.

Any info on the unknowns is greatly appreciated.

Lew
Author:  historian [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lew, I can not contribute other than advising on a typo. (sorry)

You wrote: Lother Walther

Correct is: Lothar Walther


Here the companies website:
http://www.lothar-walther.de/

And here their section on adaptors - maybe you get answers there:
http://www.lothar-walther.de/197.php
Author:  historian [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Did the 4mm Uebungsmunition cartridges use some type of adaptor cartridge, or were they loaded directly into the barrel liner.
Author:  historian [ Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
EOD, Thanks for the correction

Guy, some of these adaptors used the 4mm Uebungsmunition. I suspect that some systems simply loaded them in the barrel. I haven't tried to look at the adaptors that did not use an adaptor cartridge.
Author:  historian [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Guy,

Most of the 4mm versions were loaded directly into the barrel using a small loading spoon. The Lienhard adaptation used a dummy round, however.
Author:  historian [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is my posting with the Lienhard adaptor cartridge. Note that the Walther adaptor cartridges #12 &13 actually come in two configurations. Some accept a typical German 4mm subcaliber while others take a .22 Short cartridge and have an insert similar to the Hartmann insert shown by Fede in his post.

Any information on adaptor sets or subcaliber cartridges would be greatly appreciated
Author:  historian [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Adaptor Cartridges
Lew - no time now, but I will research the Hartmann Adaptor. My impression is, though, that I have nothing on it.

Your picture is astonishing - what a wonderful selection of adaptors. I have very few of these, even when I count in my two known .30 Luger adaptors.

However, I have some questions on your Number 3, an umarked aluminum adaptor you credit as likely Romanian. I have the same adaptor externally, except mine is a 4mm Ub
Author:  historian [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
John, You are correct on #3, it is for the 4mm. You are probably also correct that it is Hungarian. I will ask some of my contacts there when I get time.

You refer to your 7.65mm Luger adaptor cartridge as a Lienhard and as similar to #5 which is a steel casehead adapted to fire a 22RF. The only two Lienhard kits I have seen both have adaptor cartridge #1 and contain unique "Lienhard-Patronen" primers with a ZL headstamp to be used with a 4mm pellet. Neither pictures the adaptor #1. The Browning M1922 kit (which is marked 7.65 & 9mm Browning, but has the 7.65mm scratched out has a 9x19mm barrel and the drawing of the adaptor looks like #6. The other is a SIG adaptor shows adaptor #7 but the kit looks like it is also adapted for rifles. I have never heard of a Lienhard that used a .22RF. Did you mean #6 instead of #5 or is there another type of Lienhard kit??? By the way, both adaptors #6 and #9 accept the Lienhard cartridge/primer.

I think these adaptors are a real research area that needs lots of work. ANY information/photos of related adaptor kits would be much appreciated.

Looking forward to your posting.
Author:  historian [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  9mm Adaptor Cartridges.
Lew - the box calls my kit "Kleinkaliber-Einsatzlauf Kaliber 6m/m "System Lienhard." So, I cannot doubt that it is that designers work, whether they made this kit or not. I referred to the right number. Rather than try to describe it, which I am getting poorer and poorer at doing I think, I will make some scans. However, it will have to wait until later or tomorrow. I just got back from the very hot Napa Valley where I had some business to attend to, and with the in-traffic driving and the hot weather, don't feel like doing much right now. So, be patient with me. I will make enough pictures that you will be able to figure it out and probably much better than I could ever describe it.

In the interim, I will check the caliber. It is rimfire, but I don't know if it is really a .22 or for that odd little European 6mm RF round that I had an JG Anschutz training rifle for, from the Sturmabteilung (SA), some years ago. I don't have a round of that ammo, I gave all I had bought when I sold the gun (shouldn't have sold it - it was nifty and fantastically marked on both metal and wood), but I will see if a .22 short fits. It is definitely not for the 4mm Ub
Author:  historian [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow John!!! Thanks. That is a new type of Lienhard adaptor cartridge. Not surprising I guess. Great bit of info. I look forward to the postings of your adaptor cartridges and the Lienhard kit and box. Can I use the images in an IAA article?

Anyone else out there have images of adaptor cartridges to contribute???
Author:  historian [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  9mm Subcaliber
Lew - I have sent pictures of the device to my friend Joe for posting here.
They should appear in the next few days, if he is at home. I will check my other adaptors and photograph any not in your picture. Not sure I have any, though.

Do you know exactly what the "ZL" on those special primers means? I am assuming it is something like "Zunder Lienhard" or "Zundhutchen Lienhard" but I could be wrong. I have the one you picture as Number 9. I was told it was made in Switzerland and is 7.65 Para. Of course, that could be wrong - it may have simply been used with a kit in Switzerland, but made in Germany, and it could be one of those combination adaptors that could be used with either caliber, with the proper barrel.

Is your interest for the purpose of this thread and your upcoming article only 9mm (I assume 7.65 Para is peripheral due to the possibility of the subcaliber cartridges being used with both calibers), or does it include other calibers? I have some in calibers like .25 Auto, .32 Auto, .380 Auto, 7.62 Tokarev, 9mm Makarov, .45 Auto etc. I don't have much information on them though, which is the problem. Even some of the calibers are in question, due to the way some of the adapters were used, going completely into the chamber of the sub-caliber barrel. All in all, I have a lot of adaptors, but for each individual caliber, my collection is usually poor in that regard.
Author:  historian [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  John Moss Collection
Image

Picture number 1, showing the full kit out of the box, with the box lid closed and all the bits and pieces for cleaning:

System Lienhard .22 Long Rifle-caliber subcaliber kit for the Swiss Ordnance 7.65m/m Para caliber pistol (Luger) with 4-3/4" barrel. The little screwdrive shown is part of the kit and is for tighting the auxiliary front sight in the upward position. I have not tried this kit on a gun, as I don't have a Luger of these specs, but I don't see how you could see that little folding sight with the normal pistol sight behind it. Perhaps you can. I am assuming the fold-down tab is a sight, as I can see no other function for it. In this picture, the outer barrel attachment is position purposefully in the halfway forward position to show the threads behind the muzzle-nut. The dark area on the barrel in the picture is NOT blackened on the actual adaptor, but the metal for that length is not as highly polished as that in front of the chamber adapter and at the muzzle end, and it took on a shadow effect in the picture.

Image


Picture number 2, showing the empty box and the underside of the lid:

In this picture, you can see the inside of the box, cut out for the adapter barrel and the cleaning accessories. Also not the many stampings of the F. Stampfli name and address. The barrel is shown in this picture as it would go on the pistol, and the tab I believe to be an auxiliary front sight is in the upright position. The firing pin mechanism, which contains a dual firing pin that strikes the rim of the cartridge twice, 180 degrees apart, has been separated from the main unit in this picture, to show the construction.

Image

Picture number 3, showing the head of the firing pin unit:

This is the head of the firing pin unit. The striker itself has been blackened for some reason, while the rest is bare steel. Together with the contour at the chamber end of the barrel, it forms the dimensions of a 7.65mm Parabellum (.30 Luger) case.

Collection of John Moss
Author:  historian [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:37 am ]
Post subject: 
John, A great set. Many thanks. it looks pretty early. I wonder if it could have been pre-WWII made in Germany and sold by Stampfli? You asked the right question in your email. When did the Swiss (or other European governments) adopt the postal code (6000 LUZERNon your kit)?

In addition it would be useful to have a scan of the front of the adaptor. My number 5 only has a single firing pin, not two like your kit.

I may write an article in AutoMag to see if anyone there has subcaliber kits.

Does anyone know of a good Luger pistol Forum where I could ask questions on these kits???

Cheers,

Lew
Author:  historian [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: John Moss Collection
Jones wrote:
Picture number 3, showing the head of the firing pin unit:

This is the head of the firing pin unit. The striker itself has been blackened for some reason, while the rest is bare steel. Together with the contour at the chamber end of the barrel, it forms the dimensions of a 7.65mm Parabellum (.30 Luger) case.

Collection of John Moss

The firing pin could possibly be blackened as it was hardened and the outer part was not.
Author:  historian [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Addendum to the John Moss posting above.
Image

This is the inside of the "head" which is the firing pin mechanism, of the Stampfli adapter kit. It clearly shows the dual firing pins.

Collection of John Moss

This is an Addendum to the John Moss posting above.
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