John, Thanks!!! I wonder what holds the .22LR in place? Perhaps it is loaded seperately into the barrel before this adaptor is slid behind it???

#5 on my original post has a slot so the .22RF slides in from the side over a single firing pin.

Sure is a lot I don't know about all this.

Great item. Thanks.

Falcon - an excellent point on why the internal mechanism of these adapter cartridge firing pin mechanisms, both mine and the one Lew showed in his original picture on this thread, are blackened in color. I hadn't thought of that. I suspect you hit it right on the head, as they are more like discolored to black than actually blued like a pistol would be, possible as a result of the hardening process.

Lew - picture of the inside of the "cartridge head" posted as you asked. It couldn't be added to the original posting, it seems. No matter - serves just as well where it is (Thanks Joe!).

Another collector just sent me photos of the 9x19mm adaptor cartridges in his collection.




M1. Unknown to me
M2-M3. These are .22RF Short adaptors by Lothar Walther-I have these but overlooked them in my original posting
M4. Looks like it may be identical to John Moss' Leinhard in 7.65 Para. Likely the same cartridge was used in both the 9mm & 7,65mm
M5. Looks like my #5 with the .22 Short.
M6. Is a new one to me---does anyone know what it is???
M7. Is identical to my #9 which I can confirm is a Lienhard from about the 1960s. It may be a dual use 7.65 & 9mm but was definately used in a 9mm kit.
M8. US Tri-Jen identical to my #11
M9. A Lothar Walther 4mm identical to my #12



M10. This could be another Lienhard if it has the same primer pocket as M7 and my #6 and #9. Another new one to me.

Thanks to the submitter of these. There are two new adaptors in this lot and one that may be like John M's Lienhard.

Lew - Sorry. Item no. M6 is not for 9mm Parabellum. It is a very well-known Polish adapter cartridge for the 7.62m/m Tokarev TT33 pistol.

If you need confirmation, contact Jon Cohen and have him post on this thread.

Looking at the picture, M1 looked familiar to me and I find that I have it. It is a .22 LR Adapter, or at least chambers that cartridge perfectly with just a little bit of the bullet sticking out of the from of the cartridge. I have it in my records as a 7.62 Tokarev adapter, but with country unknown. That mean's I was likely simply told, when I obtained it, that it was a Tokarev adapter, but I have no documentation for it.

The beveled front of the adaptor is the right hight and angle for the 7.63 x 25mm case type (Mauser, Tokarev, Mannlicher, Borchardt), but this adaptor will not chamber properly in at least a Czech vz 52 chamber or a Chicom Type 54 Tokarev chamber, the only two weapons I have for the 7.63 x 25mm basic case type anymore. It goes almost all the way in, but is so tight that the first one of these got jammed in my gun so badly that trying to pry it out I broke a piece out of the rim. Luckily, I eventually replaced it.

So, caliber is all conjecture. Frankly, I don't believe it is 9mm Para, but can't really give any cogent reasons why I feel that way. It won't, however, chamber in a 9mm Para chamber either. Must have been used with some special barrel, and therefore, could be just about anything.

Regarding the question about how the cartridge is retained in the Lienhard conversion kit I have for the Swiss Luger 7.65m/m pistol, I believe you would have inserted the round directly into the barrel. The problem is not with the cartridge falling out, but rather with the base (firing pin mechanism), which falls right off the end of the barrel if you tilt the muzzle up. I think you probably had to use the cleaning rod supplied to knock out the empty case after firing. There is no extraction mechanism at all in this kit, and the pistols extractor would only pull the head (firing pin mech.) off, not remove the fired case.

M6 looked familiar to me and now I know why! I also agree on M1. I'm curious to know if M4 is in fact the same as your's. Hopefully, I will get a front view and the dual firing pins are distinctive.

Note the added adapter (M10) to the posting of adapters above.

To make this thread more complete I had to add Fede's thread on the Hartmann adapter cartridge.

http://iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=6777

Lew - think I asked before but no reply. Do you want adaptors of other claibers on this thread, or just 9mm (with possible dual caliber 7.65mm Para). I could scan what I have in .32, .380, Makarov, .45 and other calibers.

Am not looking for more work to do, so if not desired, don't feel like it is something I will be disappointed at if I am not to do it. If wanted, I will be happy to do it though.

Would you want a posting of the Tri-Jen box? I think it is the only adaptor cartridge container I have other than that Swiss one. I have it in 9mm and I think in .45, although the .45 wouldn't be so important as it is identical, basically to the 9mm box. Come to think of it, I have the labels for a lot of calibers in those brass ones that were made in California (Jett & Smith??). I would really only need to post one, since they came in plastic bags with a stapled label at the top and the claiber just hand-written on the label, as I recall. Haven't look at any of them in years.

Unfortunately, if I do post my other adaptors, it will lead to many more answers and a much longer thread, I think (hope) as I have little or no solid information on hardly any of them.

In short, let me know how far you want to carry this thread. I know your interest is basically only the 9mm.

John,

Lets keep this to 9x19mm for now. There are many other adaptors out there in lots of calibers. I probably have 20 or so laying around in rifle calibers in a "covert collection"/accumulation. In fact, I may add some of those to a seperate thread here shortly.

The boxes would be great!!!

Note that I have modified the description on some of the items on the first post based on subsequent comments.

Lew

NOTE: JOHN MOSS'S REPLY REFERENCED BELOW HAS BEEN REPOSTED AFTER THIS POST. IT WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THE WRONG THREAD.

John's reply contains three new adaptors which I haven't seen previously (JM4, JM5 and JM6) as well as a South African adaptor which I had picked up a couple of years ago, but had not entered into my database. It also includes two of the British TARP (Training Ammunition Re-usable Plastic) cases made by RFD Systems Engineering Ltd in Godalming, Surry England. These use a special insert and a BB type projectile I believe (Tony or one of the other guys perhaps know more about these). In addition to the Brown and Black illustrated by John, they come in Gray and Yellow. As far as I know there is no "conversion kit" to accompany these cases.

John, thanks for the info!

NOTE: REPOSTED FOR JOHN MOSS



Pictured are some subcaliber cartridges that when I acquired them, I was told they were 9mm. I think all but one of them is obviously that caliber. They are numbered in a "JM" series to differentiate them from Lew's cartridges, that just carry a numerical digit, and the ones he added, that have an "M" only in front of the number. They are pictured from left to right:

JM1. British plastic adaptor for a pellet. I am sure Curtis has these - I don't know why they were not pictured other than they are not of the Lienhard type. Black color.

JM2. Same as JM1, except Brown color. They also exist, I believe, in a gray color, but I don't have that one. would like to trade for a gray one, actually.

JM3. Solid Brass, with a fired brass primer. The bore through the cartridge is 0.1825" (4.63m/m). I don't know what projectile was used.
It was reported to me to be of South African manufacture.

JM4. Unknown solid steel adaptor with a bore of 0.153" (3.90m/m). I do not know anything about the country, manufacturer or what kind of projectile it takes. However, the only cartridge I can find that will fit its base properly is a rosebud crimped .22 blank of the type shown to the right of it in the picture.

JM5. Shot, solid steel 4m/m Ubungspatrone caliber. Bore is 0.1665"(4.23m/m) and seems compatible with the diameter of the 4mm Ub. bullet which measured (very difficult to do) about .421m/m at the case mouth. An Ub. 4m/m cartridge is shown to the right of it.

JM6. A solid brass cartridge with a cavity in the base that will take only the blank shown to its right, or the rosebud types shown next to the long steel adaptor. I have no information on the manufacturer. It looks very much like the Jett and Smith, but it is shorter OAL and the bore and cartridge (?) recess in the base are totally different.
The bore is 0.187" (3.90m/m).



Here are the bases of the six adaptor cartridges, numbers JM1 thru JM 6.They are either self-explanatory or have been commented on in the captions that are with the pictures of the full cartridges in profile.

Collection of John Moss

REPOSTED FOR JOHN MOSS



Here is the packaging for the Convert-A-Pell cartridges made by Jett & Smith. Earlier in the thread, I alluded to this being a California firm. That was erroneous. They are made in Litchfield, Illinois. Our store stocked them and got them from a California Jobber, the source of my error in memory. The packages were the same for all the calibers they made. They were used in conjunction with a conversion kit.




Here is the box for the Tri-Jen rifled adaptors, pictured along with the adaptor cartridge, one of the lead balls (shot) that came in the box, and the primer knock out rod. Regular primers were used. Evidently, the first ones were not rifled, but otherwise looked the same. Also shown is the notice that was folded up in the box pertaining to the new rifling.

Collection of John Moss

Would rifling be much use with a round ball, or could it take conventional airgun slugs?

Falcon - I doubt if the Tri-Jens or any other of the rifled adaptor cartridges would win any prizes for pistol accuracy but, yes, it should work with a round ball. Why not? It worked in early muzzle-loading rifles with round balls. Yes, I know they were usually patched, but for other reasons to do with ease of loading, bore fouling, etc. Round balls went down the barrels of early Colt and Remington Revolvers, bare (not patch) with excellent accuracy.

Have never tried one of these things. Maybe I should. I have a few 9mm adaptors - the problem is the lead shot. Don't want to use up the ones in my box and don't want to buy a 25 Lb. bag of shot so I can shot a few in my basement!

I found an error in my submission of cartridges Lew did not previously show.
In the bore diameter of JM5, I have a figure of .421mm. Obviously, that should read "4.21mm" (Four point twenty-one mm). Sorry about that. My typing gets worse and worse.