Just roughed our an article for AutoMag asking questions about the 9x19 adaptor cartridges. You can look at it at:

http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/9x19mm_ ... irdges.pdf

Just finished the article for NAPCA and ECRA looking for more info. It is at the URL above. Included the following photo which I thought may be of interest to some. It is interesting how the barrel and the adaptor cartridge interface. in the photo below I have illustrated the Convert-a-pell, the Lothar Walther .22 Short and the Lienhard.

Notice that the C-A-P uses a normal cartridge shape and the barrel is simply pushed into to sit on the tip of the adaptor cartridge. Looks to me that it would have to be reseated after each shot. There is nothing to lock it in place in the barrel and held only by rubber o-rings.

The Walther has a thin ring around the end of the barrel that engages the case mouth in the chamber and the adaptor cartridge then abutts this barrel with the tip passing in. Note the length form the chamber case mouth on the barrel to the head of the adaptor cartridge when it is seated is 19mm.

The Lienhard kit (or at least this one) has a screw-in end on the barrel that is essentially the shape of a 9x19 cartridge without the head. This is inserted in the chamber and the barrel is pushed in from the front and screwed into this chamber piece. The unusual little rimmed adaptor cartridge then fits in this chamber piece and provides a rim so that the chamber piece and the adaptor cartridge basically are the shape of a 9x19mm case. Lots of different approaches.

Lew,

Regarding your comments on the Convert-a-Pell barrel having nothing to hold it in place, it should have about four rubber "O" Rings arranged in two pairs - one jpair near the muzzle and one near the "throat" to hold it in place. This according to Jett & Smith literature and also my memory of when we sold these kits. The kits came with extras of the "O" Rings, in fact.

I don't understand your measurement explanation of the Lothar Walther kit.
You mention that it is 19mm to the case mouth. The case mouth of the adaptor cartridge is at the very tip of the adaptor. I have one of these that appears to be the same as yours, and the case mouth is actually at 24.62m/m, the overall length of the adaptor. I would thing the determinate measurement for the intended case length should be from the head of the adaptor cartridge to the forward edge of the flange on the throat end of the steel barrel (the shoulder of the adaptor cartridge in your picture is resting on the rear edge of this flange). since that flange is probably what holds the barrel in the pistol, it must be taken into account in that measurement, I would think. Otherwise, the pistol would need a special breech block (slide, bolt - whatever depending on the pistol it was intended for) shorter than normnal to allow for the space taken up behind the normal barrel by the flange. It does appear in your picture that if one includes the width of the flange, the overall length from the head of the adaptor to its front edge would be about the same as the "case length" of the Lienhard adpator below it, including the part that screws on the barrel and the firing mechinicam inserted.

Please verify that length, because at the moment, I have the adaptor cartridge classified as a .380 due to the position of the shoulder itself, but it appears I am wrong based on the way these are used, if the flange is included in the "case length."

John, My set has the o-rings on the barrel and extras in the kit. By "keep" I really meant "lock" like the Lienhard and Walther barrels are locked in place.

When I said "case mouth" I was referring to the part of the barrel that fits in the chamber case mouth in the previous sentence, not the casemouth of the adaptor cartridge.

I have edited the writeup.

Just picked up anohter adaptor cartridge. This one is a new product by a Russian firm, GV Research which "makes kits for shooting .17 BBs from real or deactivated firearms. These kits were designed for places where people have insufficient human rights and can not practice with guns at public ranges. The target market is Eastern Europe, Russia and China."

The cartridge is powered by a shotshell primer. The case is a normal brass case (with the residue of a headstamp on it-looks like an RP to me) with a steel insert inside (but non-magnetic, stainless???). The barrel has a rim on the chamber end that seats into the casemouth area of the 9x19mm chamber and a rubber gromet that pushes down to hold the barrel in place.

Always something new in the cartridge world.

Lew - Wow, what a surprise. There is no question at all that the case used to make those was a form of R - P 9 mm LUGER. You would think that Russian cases would have cost them way less. In my PM to you of just a few minutes ago, I had not looked at the Forum yet, since you posted this, and in the email there was no picture of the base. I assumed it was a turned brass case originally made for these kits.

Interesting.

So are they selling that adapter as intended to be used in illegally owned firearms?

Falcon, you know as much as I do. I'm passing on what I was sent. I have no idea what the weapon rules are in the countries mentioned. Britain allows inactivated machine weapon that are totally illegal in the US, Germany allows semi-auto conversions of machine weapons that are illegal over here. I recently got a Turkish blank/short range that has a small green plastic plug in the tip that appearently can be used in modified guns for unrestricted ownership??? Who knows what the rules are on legal and illegal in Russia and other countries? Not me!

Here is a little more. The website is Russian, and shows language options for English, French, Spanish and Russian. The Spanish home page is in Spanish, but the French and Russian home pages are still in English. There is nothing but an email address on the website (inserts@km.ru) for contact info. The guy who corresponds uses the name Gray, but the PayPal goes to a Sergey Ivanov. I went back and checked the return address on the envelop I received and it is G.V. Research, in Farmingron Hills MI so this may be a US operation run by a Russian, or ?????.

In addition to the adaptor shown, I received three "prototype/test pieces" that are of different design. What is interesting is that the "production" item shown in the thread looks like a steel insert, but is nonmagnetic-perhaps a stainless steel alloy or a tungsten alloy. One of the test items has a brass insert (with a .25" hole in the tip), and another has what looks like a two piece case with the "bullet" nonmagnetic, but the part of the insert that is about the middle of the case is strongly magnetic. The third has an insert that looks like it is steel is very weakly magnetic, so somebody was really trying out different insert materials. I also got a test piece in 7.62x39 with a steel insert that is stongly magnetic.

I just thought that the descritption implies that they intend for you to use the inserts to practise indoors with illegally owned firearms. These inserts would be illegal in the UK as they have a chamber and barrel, so would be classed as a firearm in themselves.

Everybody seems to have gun laws that make no sense on what is regulated and what isn't.

An update!!!
I have edited my first post in the series. #2 is definately Lothar Walther for a .22 LR conversion kit. These kits are made in 45ACP and 9x19mm

#8 & 9 are Lothar Walther for the 4mm M20 cartridge. This styple kit is made in 45ACP, 9x19, 9x17 (380), 7.65B and 9x18 Ultra.

The adaptors M2 & M3 on page 2 are Lothar Walther for .22 Short. These are made in 45 and 9x19, and a different design is made in 7.65B.

Lothar Walther also makes conversion kits made for revolvers and rifles.

Lothar Walther is basically a barrel maker who has been in business since 1925. I have just received an email from the Lothar Walther company that said these conversion kits were among the earliest products of the company so the earliest ones date from 1925. I lack any infor on their early kits. Does someone have a photo??

Finally, on the Russian adaptor by GV Research. The company is registered in the Bahamas but the hardware is actually made in Belarus. they are just getting started.

A bit more data on a couple of the adaptors in the original article.

#9 is found in a 7.65mm Lienhard 4mm kit for the Luger. I believe the same subcaliber could fit a kit for the 9mm pistol but there is no evidence of such a kit yet.



#5 which had been Unknown turns out to fit perfectly with a 9mm conversion kit to .22.



It fits perfectly with a 9mm Barrel with a aluminum barrel housing extension very similar to the System Lienhard conversion kit in 7.65mm Luger John Moss posted earlier in this thread. I believe the one pictured is earlier than John's because the adaptor which holds the cartridge has only one RF firing pin and looks like a less finished design. Similarly, John's kit has the knurling on the aluminum barrel extension making it easier to handle. I suspect John's kit is pre WWII or immediately post WWII. I think the kit above is probably pre WWII. The barrel came without an adaptor to hold the .22 cartridge and convert from CF to RF. After some measuring, it turns out that my original #5 unknown is a perfect fit. I tried it out in my 1913 Erfurt Luger. Note this is the same adaptor as M5 on page 2 of this thread.



The barrel assembly on this kit, which was without a box but represented as a Lienhard if very close to John's System Lienhard, and the front site is identical. It then follows that my unknown #5 is a Lienhard adaptor which was probably the predecessor to that shown by John and adaptor M4 on page 2 of this thread.

Another mystery cleared up.

However, the 9mm-.22 kit above came with a number of adaptors which did not match. One was a 4mm M20 adaptor by Lothar Walther, but the others were 4mm adaptors that sure look like they were intended for a 9mm, but of a style not previously documented. I will post a photo of them later. These may be an early style 4mm cartridge by Lienhard since they were associated with a Lienhard system, but who knows. I don't know of Lienhard producing systems for the M20, but it was extremely popular so he may have.

Again, any opinions are appreciated. If you know a couple of autopistol collectors, call and ask them if they have any 9mm conversion kits. photos would be great, but any descriptions or even names would be a help.

I have asked that this thread be brought forward since I have some additions that may interest the Forum and to keep the material all in one place.

Recently Mr M Slootweg send me the following photos of Walther and Lienhard subcaliber kits.

The first kit appears to be a late model 9mm Lienhard from the 1960s or 1970s. This looks like the same adaptor cartridge illustrated as #1 in my original posting but rough measurements indicate it perhaps is a larger diameter than #1.


The second is a 7.65mm Luger Lienhard kit, probably from the 1950s, but could be earlier. Note this style of adaptor cartridge has only been encountered with 7.65mm Luger kits, but there appears to be no reason that it would not work with a 9mmP kit. This is #9 in my original posting


The next two are Lothar Walther kits from the 1950s-1970s-probably---at least the early style box. Note one is for .22LR and the other for .22 Short.



Enjoy and thanks to Marck Slootweg.

In a seperate post I promised the drawing of a Polish adaptor cartridge apparently intended for a Radom adaptor kit. Here it is. The drawing is dated either 12 Jan 1939 or 1 Dec 1939. Since the German invasion was September of 1939, I suspect the drawing was from January. The timing makes me wonder if any/many kits were actually produced. The entry in the top right of the drawing makes it look like it was intended for a Radom pistol---which makes sense. In any case, very cute. Does anyone have any information on an adaptor kit which may have used this cartridge?

About 25 years ago I purchased and used a subcaliber cartridge much similar to your number 11, except it was for the 9 x 23 mm Largo and was parkerized instead of blued. It was steel, accepted shotshell primers and fired 4,5 mm airgun lead pellets (.177).