Schneider - was it for the Astra 400? The Astra 300/400 instruction book entitled "Pistol Nacional Astra Modelos 400 - 300" shows a 4 mm conversion kit. The text on this kit reads, in a free translation from the Spanish:

"Astra Subcaliber Kit"

"We recommend for utilization in the Astra Models 300 and 400 pistols, the subcaliber kit for shooting with 4 mm cartridges, to allow you to have a great economy in the price of ammunition.

"This kit is composed of:

1 Subcaliber barrel, caliber 4 mm
6 Reloadable cartridges (Model 300)
8 Reloadable cartridges (Model 400)
1 Anvil (Note from J. Moss: We assume this is the base for punching out the old cartridge cases or putting in the new ones)
,l Botador (Note from J. Moss. I cannot translate this word precisely. Since a form of this word means to "throw out" I am assuming this is a punch that is used with the anvil to knock out the fired cartridge case).
1 Brush (as in bore cleaning brush)

"This kit makes itself indispensable for target practice and the barrel can be assembled in a few seconds, converting the pistol into a Salon pistol for target shooting. Because of its excellent precision and of its simple and practical use, the Ministry of the Navy of Spain has adopted this "Astra" subcaliber kit."

While the text makes it sound like this kit is usable in one single form for both the Astra 300 and the Astra 400 pistols, we feel this is impossible and that in reality, they are talking about separate kits for each pistol. The Astra 300 was made in calibers 7.65 mm Browning and 9 mm Corto (.32 and .380 Auto) and is a much smaller pistol than the Astra 400, which was caliber 9 mm Largo (9 x 23 mm).

The drawing of the kit shows full profile adaptor cartridges similar to Convert-a-Pell or many other brands of conversion kit cartridges. It is a drawing, qalthough a good one, so I am not sure there is any point in reproducing it here.

According to the drawing, the kit was supplied in a box, probably cardboard, compartmentalized for the various components of the kit.

John Moss

John, although I used it in an Astra 400, as long as I remember my subcaliber was not related to any specific model of pistol. I seem to recall that it didn't even came in a box, they were sold "as is".

You have translated correctly "anvil" and "botador".

The following are some pics by Mr Slootweg (photos of the Astra kit) and John Moss (photos of the flyer and the subcaliber adapter). there was also a Star adaptor from about the same period, but there was no subcaliber adaptor. It had a barrel chambered for the small 4mm Ub cartridge.

Lew,

The picture of the flyer on the Astra subcaliber kit came from me, but I don't think the adaptor cartridge you show did. I do not recognize it as one I have.

Are you sure this is the one from the Astra Kit, by the way?

John Moss

John, If it didn't come from you than it was from Mr Slootweg and is from the kit pictured. Sorry for the misidentification.

Cheers, Lew

Lew
These are the two best forums that I've found for German pistols.
Probably posting a link to this discussion would bring more information and expose more collectors to the I.A.A. site.


Jan C Still Luger Pistols Central Powers Axis Pistols Discussion Boards

http://luger.gunboards.com/index.php
P 38 & PP-PPK Collector Forums

http://www.p38forum.com/


Done.

Glenn

Here is another subcaliber set with adaptor cartridges that I have never heard of before. It says that it was made int eh United Kingdom by Millard Brothers Ltd, PO Box 24 Motherwell ML1 4UP Scotland. The packet is marked .38 Special 4" but the label and the literature clearly shows it was also made in autopistol calibers. The plastic adaptors have a metal insert that holds the primer and which the pellet sits on top of. These adaptors, with their metal insert show a real similarity to the TARP adaptor cases sold by RFD Systems Engineering Ltd in Surrey.



I have looked on line and can't find a Millard Brothers in Scotland, but there is one in Ireland. I have written them an email but no answer yet.

Has anyone seen one of their autopistol sets---ideally one in 9mmPb???

Millard Bros also used the name "Milbro" and as such are/were well known for their airguns and pellets. You could start with: http://www.milbro.apt-sites.com/ and see if that gets you anywhere.

gravelbelly

The thread is branching out a bit, but this is too interesting not to post. It appears to be a Walther (not Lothar Walther but the pistol maker) subcaliber kit for the PP pistol. It looks like a pre-1945 item to me. The 7.65mm Browning steel subcaliber adaptors are loaded with the standard 4mm centerfire cartridge.







Can anyone confirm that this is a pre-1945 product??? Approximately what year of production??

Does anyone else have photos of pre-1945 German kits with adaptor cartridges. If so, please post pics.

Cheers,

Lew

Lew--I once had a Walther kit just like yours, except it did not have the nice box, just cardboard. I bought it about 1978 for a 7 1/2 inch barrel .45 Colt Urberti Cattleman Revolver. It fired .22 Long Rifle. Also, the adapters were two piece. A brass cartridge with a steel firing striker. The kit came with 6 of these adapters.

Lew - Like for you, that Walther kit strikes me as pre-war, not post-war. Just a gut feeling. It looks like a wood box. I think the post-war boxes for similar kits were all cardboard. Shame it doesn't have the address, or an instruction sheet with the address - that would answer the question, of course.

John Moss

Lew--I just went back and looked at the earlier posts on this thread. My .45 Colt adapter was in a box exactly like the green box you showed in your 11 Oct. post.

Your kit is a pre-1945 Walther set. Ausfuhrung I like yours uses cartridge inserts. Ausfuhrung II has a loading tool to insert the M20 4mm cartridge directly into the barrel insert.

I have been researching the Walther company and there is some evidence that these kits were indeed produced by Lothar Walther, but under contract with the Walther factory.

JoeW, That makes good sense to me. The kit has all the characteristics of a Lothar Walther product and the company was established in 1925. I have been looking for examples of their pre-WWII products in 9mm but have been unsuccessful.

Thanks for the info!

Lew

They were after all brothers. And Lothar took over the old factory building when Waffenfabrik Carl Walther moved to the larger facility on Goethe Str. in Z-M.