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 .275 Rigby? 
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:35 pm
Posts: 244
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
If you are a market hunter you will be shooting you rifle often and with elephant you will be carting it great distances. There for the recoil and weight of the bigger rifles also had a factor.

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Vic Trautman
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Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:09 pm
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:47 am
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Location: London, England
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
I was thinking more about getting trampled by an extremely annoyed elephant you just shot. The best ivory was found on the biggest (and hence meanest) examples. I would not fancy facing an enraged bull elephant armed only with a 7x57. Besides which, these people didn't carry their own rifles anyway, they had bearers.

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Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:42 pm
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Post Re: .275 Rigby?
I would suspect that Bell had some feelings about wounded and suffering elephants and that he probably wanted a quick kill. I doubt that he wanted to constantly face wounded and suffering elephants. It did not improve their disposition. I would not want to face one, even armed with a 416 Rigby, or some other big rifle.

I go back to the famous video of Game Rangers shooting animals - a representation of how poachers do it. They seemed to fire two quick shots, if I recall properly, but every animal dropped like lightning - instant death. Rifles were FN-FAL types, undoubtedly in 7.62 x 51 NATO caliber. I suspect that an elephant is like any animal. If you have no fear of it, hence are willing to get close, and know precisely where to shoot it and have the skill and calm to produce those shots time and time again, that you need a lot less gun than most of us would, who are guarding against the condition of shooting a charging elephant, or one that tricked us because we didn't know the nuances of its behavior.

I personally wish it was never desired or necessary to shoot one of those intelligent, magnificent animals, but I know that is not realistic from a Game Management standpoint, and I have nothing against legal hunting if the animal is used for food or other purposes, which I believe they are when given to local residents of the area after a trophy is taken. Just not my cup of tea.

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Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:27 pm
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Location: Joburg, South Africa
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
From what I have read, I understand that the 275 Rigby was a high velocity loading of the 7x57 Mauser case. Here is a picture of the two cartridges, both by Kynoch to show the differences in length:
Image

Here is a picture of both boxes, showing the difference in the cartridge length that they are designed to hold:
Image

The 7x57 Mauser box states that the bullet weight is 173gr. THe Rigby box does not give the bullet weight so I pulled one and it weighs 9.1g or 140gr. Being a lighter bullet it can be loaded to higher velocities for the same pressures. This is the difference.

Regarding calibers having proprietary names:
500 Jeffery = 12.7 Schüler
30 Purdey = 30-40 Krag
223 Remington = 5.56x45
6.5-08 A-Square = 260 Remington
375 Hoffman = 375 H&H
256 Kings Norton Swift = 6.5x54
256 Fraser = 6.5x54
8mm BSA = 303 British or 8x50R Mannlicher
450 Rigby or Fraser Match = 45-90


Cases having different names:
243 Winchester = 6mm Winchester
9.3x66 Sako = 370 Sako Magnum
6mm Remington = 244 Remington
308 Winchester = 7.62x51 - there are many cartridges that have an imperial as well as metric designation.

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Will


Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:06 am
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Location: Loneriacco di Tarcento , ITALY
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
Also 416 Rigby AKA 10,5 X 73 Miller & Greiss and 400 / 360 Westley Richards AKA 9 x 70 R mm

Thanks Will, I didn't know that the 450 Rigby Match was actually the 45 - 90 ( Sharps or Winchester?)

Surely the cartridges that are in the proprietary box bear the "275"hds .... are there commercial Kynoch boxes labeled "275 Rigby" and "7x 57 mauser" or was the metric designation commonly used by Kynoch?

My 275 Rigby sample has the "KYNOCH 7 m/m" hds

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Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:16 am
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:47 am
Posts: 1529
Location: London, England
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
You have to understand that the London gunmakers were wrapped up in a world that is best summed up by the word "bespoke".
It has little to do with the rifles, even less to do with the ammo.

They were selling to a clientel that has their shoes, their suits, their shirts handmade.

By this time they were losing ground to the mainstream rifle and ammo makers but they had to preserve their edge, their image.

Even today that snobbery exists but for many years, over a century in fact they lacked the resources to do the R&D necessary to bring real innovation to the market place in terms of ammo.

The big boys in the ammo world were able to do more than they could. However, they still cling today to "image" and bespoke calibres today but the difference is marginal. If it exists at all.

If I was going to Africa to shoot big game I would buy a Remington 700 in .375, or .416 and bypass the famous names who would sell me a rifle for ten times as much. Not that I'm ever likely to. Even though I still visit their shops in London from time to time and see people (rich arabs mostly) buying their guns. I am not able to spend that sort of money.

Similarly, in the same part of London I could buy a handmade pair of shoes for $3000 or a Saville row suit for much the same.

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Last edited by VinceGreen on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:48 pm
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 1059
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
Vince: It's well to remember that, image and clientele perceptions aside, there was a time when anyone intending to hunt large and dangerous game in Africa or Asia pretty much needed a cartridge by one of the British custom gunmakers. In the period when satisfactory powerful magazine rifle calibers were first developed and offered by Rigby, Holland and Holland, and others the American makers offered nothing at all equivalent ballistically. The .405 Winchester was no .416 Rigby, and it was only when Winchester first offered the Model 70 in .375 H & H that a good cheap rifle in this class was widely available. Jack


Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:24 pm
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:47 am
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Location: London, England
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
Oh yes you are 100% correct. They created the market and the calibres. No doubt about that. But as time has moved on their ability to maintain that edge has been eroded. When the time came that they were forced into renaming calibres like the 7x57 thats when I would say they lost the plot.

There is no doubt their rifles at the time were the best in the world but, (like cars) things have moved on. I would like to drive a Bentley but in reality today its a top of the range Volkswagen. Jaguar is Ford. Rolls Royce is BMW.

In most European capitals (not London) the taxis are all Mercedes. where is the edge?

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Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:31 pm
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Post Re: .275 Rigby?
As of 2008, a Jaguar is just a top of the range Indian Tata.


Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:19 am
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Location: London, England
Post Re: .275 Rigby?
Falcon wrote:
As of 2008, a Jaguar is just a top of the range Indian Tata.

Yes you are right, thanks for the correction. The point I was making is that even in the car world the "top" names mean very little these days.
Bringing it back onto an ammo footing again though lets not forget probably the best example of a bespoke calibre that went the other way. The .375 H&H Magnum which is now a world calibre and father to many others. Is there any calibre that has more spin offs?

It will be 100 years old in 2012 and i would like to get my claim in early to nominate it as calibre of the year 2012.

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Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:18 pm
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